Forums - (CvS2)Raiden advanced strats and tactics Show all 28 posts from this thread on one page Forums (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/index.php) - Strategy & Tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10) -- (CvS2)Raiden advanced strats and tactics (http://www.shoryuken.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=56765) Posted by zeiram on 03:09:2002 08:52 PM: (CvS2)Raiden advanced strats and tactics alright, first my intoduction to this thread. I dont believe that raiden is the best character or anything like that, so dont write useless posts about "well, i think raiden sucks", i dont care, i dont want your opinion, i want facts, and for that matter, i want strats. im gonna post a couple combos, but mostly they all revolve around the same thing. i just wanted to play as this guy, and see what all he can do. so far of what ive observed of playing other people, he can get annoying, break guards, and make the opponent do what you want. all the stuff i post have been tested and tryed on human opponents as well. with that said. onto the post. B&B combos: 1. (can be done anywhere) cross up d+fp, c. lp, c. lp XX lp body blow & headbutt(rdp+lp, qcb+lp), lvl3 Flame breath(dbl hcb+fp) note: crossup d+fp can be substituted for fp, and deep mk. also c. lp, c. lp can also be substituted for s. mp, c. mk, or, c. lp, c. lp, c. lp. 2. (can be done anywhere) jumpin fp, c. mk XX jab poison breath(hcb+jp), lvl3 flame breath note: as i stated you can do this anywhere, but the when doing the motion for the lvl3 you just continue doing hcbs immediatly after the poison breath. 3. c. mk, lvl2 punch rush(qcf+mp), cancel after the shoulder hit to lvl1 flame breath. note: basic c-groove combo. thats pretty much it for his comboability, but it doesnt really matter, hes not a combo machine, but all these combos can be pulled off with minimal practice and are easy mistake punishers. coming next post, poke strings and guard crushes. Zeiram out. Posted by zeiram on 03:09:2002 09:15 PM: Poking attacks and strings. now first off, im sure people have seen the endless fight strategy video, but im going to repeat whats on it, and a couple of my own variations, and explain why they are good. Poison breath- very good poke move, does shitloads to the guard bar. two of them and the opponent is almost at 50% guard bar. note: this is ratio 2 to 2. this is also his safest move cause it recovers almost instantly if they opponent blocks or gets hit by it. i only use the jab version because its the fastest startup. but also not that this wont hit at certain ranges if they are duck(which most are), but lucky for you, ive done a lot of experimenting on it. larger character sizes of sagat, gief, raiden, etc. can pretty much be hit by the poison breath even when close up. so like the video you can do a string of c. mk XX poison, c. mk XX poison and that will hit, but against medium sizes of ryu, kyo, etc, you can do c. mk XX poison up close, but if you do a second series of that, the poison will miss, and you are open to get sweeped. Body blow, headbutt/dash bodyslam- this is also decent guard damaging and pressure move. its relatively safe if done at the right distance as well. and if you do a right attack string (Still working on that) you can be in range to either headbutt, or throw. stand short, c. mk- these are nice little pokes, c. mk can do 2in1ed with either the poison or bodyblow so guard damage can add up quick. shoulder rush- alright, this moves a little tricky. this is your predicted counter move. example: i do a string of c. jab, c. mk XX poison breath. now, if i think that they are gonna try to attack after the breath, id do a jab shoulder rush. the rush has invincibility at start up (more frames of invinc. if doing an mp or fp SR) and most stuff with whiff and then raiden will hit, also allowing you to lvl3 flame breath them after the rush if you have the meter. now, this where it gets tricky, say you guess wrong and they block your rush at that range. (if doing that attack string and then rushing, the range will leave you just a little bit outside and opponents jab range) now, they could go for a lvl3 super, but you have time to roll, if facing a fast walk player (i.e. Mai) they may try to walk and throw you, to stop that throw out some jabs, if they jump forward or up, you flame breath them, and if they do nothing, here comes the greatest part, you 720 them! hahaha. (last part taken from endless fight strat vid) these are only some examples of things, i have more stuff about poking yet to say, like specific strings, where they leave you, what options you have and what options the opponent DOESNT have. also other basics about him. NOTE!!! Raidens regular throw range is insanely far. abuse at any chance. hahaa, ill leave it at that, but ill have more like setting up his throw and stuff later. for now ill outa here. Zeiram out. Posted by Orion_of_Chaos on 03:09:2002 09:26 PM: could you put the link to the endless fight vid? Posted by zeiram on 03:09:2002 09:53 PM: heres the vid link: http://www.cc.ntut.edu.tw/~jdshyu/m...VS2_tech_v1.wmv Zeiram out. Posted by Urotsukidoji on 03:09:2002 10:45 PM: The only 2 combos I really use with Raiden are: 1. J.d+HP \/ c.mk XX HP body blow + headbutt 2. J.d+HP \/ c.mk XX HP body blow + headbutt, lvl.3 fire breath Playing as Raiden is fun, but I think he's got to be one of the worst charactes in CvS2. The main problem is that he really has no way of getting in on some characters. His pokes simply suck. Raiden vs. Rolento or Dhalsim is ugly. Once you get in with Raiden, though, he can do so much damage it's not even funny. One thing I noticed is that his jump d+hp has some really wack priority. You can outprioritize a lot of anti-airs with this, especially if you're directly above your opponent, which is exactly the distance you want to be at. Ideally, you want to be able to jump directly above them, so that they're unsure if you will cross up or not(it's really hard to tell with this fatty...). If they try to anti-air or block the wrong way, land one of his very very damaging combos. If they DO block the jump-in, you can do any one of these: 1. c.mk XX body blow XX qcb+k grab 2. c.mk, wait, and land a 720. 3. c.mk XX body blow, wait for the opponent to jump to avoid your grab, and fire breath(or poison spray). 4. This one is funny, but it only works if your jump in was a cross-up(or if you skip the jump in and are very close): c.mk XX body blow, 720(this really only works against someone who thinks they've figured out your raiden. They'll wait to see if you go for the grab before they jump. So, they see you just sitting there, and they don't jump, but get grabbed anyway). I'm sure there are a million more equally deadly things Raiden can do in close, but even these few things are enough. I really can't get across how dangerous Raiden is when he gets in close. In addition, his combos don't just do way too much damage, they also do a ton of dizzy damage. Just one combo can very nearly dizzy a lot of characters. Good luck getting close, though, hehe. Posted by zeiram on 03:10:2002 07:27 AM: good stuff Urotsukidoji. i see what you mean how its hard to get in, thats kinda why i play defensive with him. love the body splash as well. to get in i usually use a shoulder rush, his hitbox for that is kinda wierd, like if you didnt hit the guy or they block it, the move can hit it seems into his recovery period of the move. of course projectiles and some other specials will beat it out that late into the move, but im sure normals would still get hit. but another good example of this is something i call the "Raiden Rush". "Raiden Rush" this is what happens when raiden gets his fp grab and then after the move immediatly as he recovers you do a mp shoulder rush. what i explain next for a while will be when you to it outside of the corner. what happens is the opponent will stand up and the very end of the rush. there is only two things the opponent can do now, block, or reversal super. with the exception of a few reversal uppercut moves, and i do mean few. ive tested it and it will beat or trade hits with a couple otherwise high priority moves like kims kusagin, or akumas uppercut. now the if they block, you are completely safe, since they actually stand up into the end of the move. if they move forward after blocking, even in the slightest, you can 720 them. and if they jump any way but back, you can flame breath them. ive found that if they block and try a normal counter move or some sweeps that i can nail them with his fierce punch which will do a nice chunk of damage. or you can even be charging another Shoulder rush during the first one! now what happens if the rush hits? well, since you are recovering from the move so fast you can lvl3 breath them for a nicely damaging juggle. is that it you ask? well, also i like to mix it up a bit, so another thing you can do is the dp+p jumping grab. you will land behind the opponent and will recover from the move the same time as the opponent stands up. that will give you a free 360/720 if they do anything but a reversal uppercut or super. if you want to do the raiden rush in the corner you have use fp instead because of the longer move length. but ive also done the RR to people outside of the corner and taught them to not attack as they are waking up, so then if i threw them into the corner i still use the mp one which is shorter and will miss when they stand up, but the move recovers the same time they stand up, so you can fp throw them again and repeat the process!!! a different variant of the RR is in a poke string. when close to the opponent throw out c. lp X 3, c. lk XX jab Shoulder rush. it basically has the same idea but now you are more open to counters so i only use sparingly. Landing the FP throw: this will be needed if your going to be abusing the RR. i think the most simple and best mixup is off of two crouching jabs. raiden has insane throw range. what throws off people is that the two jabs dont put him outside the throw window, but only on the very edge. so even if you hit with the jabs, watch the animation of raiden get of his knees and then as his backround leg stands up, press forward and fierce punch, BOOM, powerbomb. now if you think the opponent will acticipate the throw and try to hit you with a normal or special you can do a jab shoulder rush and use its startup invicibilty frames to pass through the move and then smack them. using the crossup to land fp throw: this i tested out a bit, but i have yet to try on every character size, so this tactic is done on ryu size character. simply put, raidens d+fp body spash is odd looking. and so is the hitbox for it, when using it to cross up you have to throw it out early and have it hit at about his feet or knees. if your going to be throwing a guy after it you have to throw it out a bit early. all jumps have a maximun height they go, using a normal jump on a standing opponent i throw it out just about as he is coming down. that way the body splash either hits or blocks, then i tap forward AS its hitting, then tap forward+fp for the throw. it sounds stupid but trust me, its an easy way of timing for the throw since you cant immediatly throw after a move hits or blocks. just do the two taps a bit slow and youll be fine. if doing against a crouching opponent throw the move out bout halfway in the jump. a good example of how high that is is record the computer ryu to do ducking fierce punch, the halfway height of raiden is about ryus wrist to elbow. and lastly you can use the RR to land another fp throw. after a blocked RR you can crouch block after. say the opponent doesnt do anything cause they are anticipating something or dont want to move and be hit. well, simply standup and move a half step forward and throw again. i swear, raiden can throw rediculously far. use it to his advantage. anyway, ill post a few more tricks the man has. till then, remember this. a person can be good in others minds no matter what character they use, but a person will truly stand out in their mind if you can win with shit characters. Zeiram out. Posted by Urotsukidoji on 03:10:2002 06:15 PM: quote: Originally posted by zeiram "Raiden Rush" this is what happens when raiden gets his fp grab and then after the move immediatly as he recovers you do a mp shoulder rush... Cool. I never even thought of using the fire breath after a shoulder rush. That's a pretty tight looking combo. This is def. a very cool strategy. You know, I was messing around w/your "Raiden Rush", and I found out an alternative you can use to mix it up. Every so often, instead of using the punch throw, you can use the kick throw. This way, the mp shoulder rush will whiff, but you'll recover standing right over your opponent right before he gets up(sort of like the situation you talked about in the corner). A lot of people freeze up when they're getting rushed down by Raiden, so this is a good set up for a 720 right as they get up(or another RR!). I think jchensor used to do something like this with EX Vice in CvS1 with her shoulder rush. Good stuff so far. EDIT: One thing I fogot. Any level 720 will also set you up at the perfect distance for a mp RR. So, I guess any throw except his 360 can be followed with a shoulder rush. Posted by noswad on 03:11:2002 07:12 AM: yeah..Meaty ready-go's are pretty sweet. You can also try RH throw (mash a bit), fierce ready-go.. and don't forget about meaty jab ready-go if you land a sweep. ANyhow, this stuff leaves -great- damage options, but it is a "challenge" strat. Your opponent knows exactly what's happening, and can stop it if he has the ability.. Against some people you can bet on them fucking up a reversal, it's great! but risky against characters with lvl3's and whatnot. It's also not as good if you don't have meter.. it's still a good meaty, but no huge payoff. Watch out for delayed get-ups!! ^_^ so annoying I like that little super trap he has.. get in somehow->flame/grab super. heh, not really that dumb, but similar. If they block or do a shitty attack, they eat 360. If they jump or do a lesser attack they eat the flame. If they try to avoid/stop one super, they can get hit by the other super. Kinda-like a guesing game. If you guess wrong you could be in for some trouble though.. still pretty good results for the effort anyhow. More s.fierce! ^_^ love that move. j.short->short spd seems ok tick. j.short rules anyhow. What else? Oh, what groove is good for Raiden? I really like K because of the constant lvl3s. A is ok. I personally don't see C groove being very good for him. Posted by D-side on 03:11:2002 06:31 PM: I think Raiden could become a pretty good ofensive player, first of all i love raiden's shoulder rush move because it can go thru must projectiles, and if you use a light shoulder rush move, and the other player blocks it, then you can either use a 360, or his 720, and boom it makes contact.. Posted by zeiram on 03:11:2002 11:00 PM: hey, thats coo, i never really tryed the RR with the fk throw to see what it does, but thats also nice to know. i was also messing around with sweep into RR and that works decent and then i found something pretty crazy too, i was doing sweep then into the body blow/rush grab and i had the opponent set to tech recover and i actually threw them outa the recover, i dont remember what punch i used for the body blow tho. ill work on that a little more. till then.... Custom poke strings this stuff's sole purpose is to apply the pressure once you actually get in and break down that guard meter, cause once he breaks guard unleash a B&b combo and then its pretty much peace out a lower ratio or a good chunk gone from a higher one. cross-up d+fp, df+fk, c. mk XX body blow/headbutt combo OR mixup i like this one a lot cause people think they are out of range after the df+fk but yet still in good range for the mk and body blow to bring him back into range. this is a good setup for the mixup that Urotsukidoji was talking about with the body blow. close in corner c. lk XX jab poison breath, c. lk XX poison breath, c. mk body blow/headbutt man, this string takes shitloads off of the guard bar. approximatly 80-85% from a ratio 2 to 2. close c. jp, s. lk, jab poison breath, s. mp on certain character the s. mp is out of range, but if they try something it usually has enough priority to hit them clean or trade hits. and if they roll after the poison breath, your mp can recover fast enough to throw them. excluding supers of course, but a person would really have to catch onto you to reaction super after blocking a poison breath. also at any time during these strings if you anticipate the opponent try and footsie you out of these do df+fk. this move is great for snuffing out any low form of kick, and i cannot stress that enough. its a fast recovering move too, sometimes if im away from the opponent ill just do a couple of these to build meter and psyche out a bit. the move will even beat some of 'sims low ranged punches. ill go work on a couple more poking strings and various stuff. thanks for reading this stuff, i hope it helps. Zeiram out. Posted by WKDCLWN on 03:12:2002 02:46 AM: Nice strats Zieram. I love the big ballers, Gief, Raiden, and Chang(quite often one of my better teams) and I just decided to work on my Raiden some more when I spotted your advise. Hey you are from Detroit aren't you? My friends and I were just there last weekend. Posted by Urotsukidoji on 03:12:2002 05:09 AM: Good shit, Zeirem. I was just messing around with A-Raiden, and I found some corner CCs. 1) Poison spray, activate CC, Body blow + headbutt, s.HP until you get 8 or so hits, then switch to c.HP that hit twice each, fire breath. The body blow and headbutt are there so that you can get in range to juggle your enemy with normals. If your poison spray is done point blank, then you can leave out the body blow + headbutt. Theoretically, you should be able to not do the body blow ever, and just do his far s.hp, but for some reason this is almost impossible...the HPs just won't cancel a lot of the time. Too bad, because you could get a lot more hits this way since the close hp knocks your opponent a lot higher in the air. I think this CC could work with the poke strings Zeirem posted: if one of your poison sprays happens to hit, then CC.(only works in the corner, though) Well, I was thinking...the reason this works is because you recover from the poison spray so fast, and the opponent is still in the air, giving you time to activate and juggle. So, any time that you can tack on a level 3 fire breath, you should be able to substitute a CC. So, in the corner, you can also CC after a shoulder rush or a body blow+headbutt. The most damaging CC I found for him is: 2) j.d+HP \/ c.mk XX body blow + headbutt, activate CC, s.HP x 4, c.HP x 5, fire breath. It does 9072 damage. I don't know about A-raiden though...I think he's better in just about every other groove. Does anyone know any midscreen CCs? Does repeated shoulder dashes work? That would be tight if you could always add a CC to the end of body blow + headbutt when midscreen. Another thing...since you can add a CC after a corner poison spray, that means you can instead use a lvl.3 fire breath after the poison spray. Even if you're not in the corner, if you fast and close enough, you can do it. In the corner, you can hit with a max range poison spray and still juggle w/fire breath. Pretty sick. -Uro Posted by zeiram on 03:12:2002 06:02 AM: yeah, ive only fooled around with a-groove raiden a bit, paired with whatever vids ive seen for him, so my a-raiden knowlege isnt up to par, but i think i know a couple things. for the most part your a-groove corner combo is really nice uro. any CC that does over 7000 is pretty good and worth using. ive pretty much only have seen two a-groove combos with him. one is from xerocrews a-groove vid and another one i saw mike_z using at a tourney: (in corner)activate c. fk XX poison breath, dropkick, dk, jab shoulder rush, dk, dk, SR, flame breath (did 6856 on the vid) c. fk XX jab shoulder rush, fierce shoulder rush X n, flame breath these are pretty good too, they take advantage of raidens powerful hits and do less of them in the combo to make the damage scaling not take too big of a toll on the combo. notice how they both start off with a sweep, certain things can be done now. a basic a-groove strategy is activating CC as the opponent jumps in. now the thing is, they have to attack, you activate, then go right into the CC and they will get hit, but if they jump in and dont attack, they will be able to block the first hit. but since theres talk about a-raiden, ill have to go and see what kind of stuff i can find out with him, i already have a couple ideas of things, but ill let you guys know about anything i find. btw- i have one to everyone else now, and it concerns anti-airs. like raiden has a possible of three if im correct. c. fp, jab shoulder rush, and poison breath, but im wondering which one is safer to throw out, ive had mixed results with all of them, and some are better at certain situations than others, is that all there is tho? i mean, the biggest probs i have with raiden are when i get rushed down from the air, i dunno, i guess ill have to test some more stuff out. btw- wkdclwn, no actually im not from detroit, but quite a bit north of that, i had wanted to be there, but weather was being, well, michigan style that day. tho im usually always at any tourneys there in d-town, and plan on going to toronto this weekend to try my raiden in tourney play. it will be a first. check yall later. Zeiram out. Posted by hyt on 03:12:2002 02:25 PM: The 3 anti airs are more conditional than the "pick one to use 100% of the time" type, just like Terry. The one thing they have in common is that they have to be started up early. I usually use the c.HP and the Poison/Fire Breath only works at a certain range. I remember a B5 report where the guy asked Chikkyu Sodom why he didn't use the Fire Breath as an AA and said that nobody jumped at a specific angle so I could use it properly. I don't agree with using the shoulder rush as an AA because the invincibility frames end around 5-7 frames before the execution frames come out. Posted by cheese_master on 03:12:2002 05:21 PM: I guess I can contribute to this nice lil' thread (BTW guys are doing a nice job and have some tight strats). Anyways... I remember watching some strategy video w/ Raiden in it a while back (I think it was a Majestros one from Clockw0rk.com)... anyways... N groove Raiden... if you have three stocks and break one... you can AC into his lvl3 poison breath. It is tight damage... but I think it helps Raiden cuz when people use pushaway tactics on him... U can just AC that shit and lvl3 them. So it really helps his rushdown. I am sure most of you knew this... but I figured I just bring it up for those who didn't. I'm gonna check later tonight if his AC into lvl2 poison breath works tonight... then I'll prolly play him in C groove... cuz his lvl2 poison breath XX into shoulder tackle is mad damage. Oh yeah... another useful food for thought. Raiden's st MP... is one of the three moves in the game that outright beat Jesus's (Sagat's) cr FP. I found this one out on my own a while ago... figured I would share it with you all. Posted by zeiram on 03:12:2002 06:25 PM: wow, that is really tight to know. mega thanks for that info. btw- only lvl3 fire breath will juggle, sorry to spoil it for ya. i remember in the first cvs it could juggle at any lvl. i wonder why they took that out, not like raidens too good or somethin. id say raidens best jumpins are d+fp bodysplash, jumping short, and short-jump mk. i like short jump mk, then 360, its pretty fast and the opponent has less time to jump away as per say doing a lvl1 720. Zeiram out. Posted by noswad on 03:12:2002 07:02 PM: I think that made the lvl1/2 not juggle because of C-Groove.. I'd say he would have some FAT combos if it did. j.fp, d.mk, bodyblow->heabutt, lvl2 flame, ready-go, lvl1 flame maybe? Being able to combo lvl1 flame, lvl2 flame->ready go or whatever after his B&B would be really good i think. As for CCs.. Can you combo a CC after his B&B midscreen? You can do it easily after a meaty ready-go, but I don't really know about after the bodyblow->headbutt. I was thinking something with the dropkick first then go into his normal midscreen maybe? I'll have to try it out. If anyone can spill the beans about his normals it'd be great too. So s.strong is good counter-poke? On the ground I usually use jabs/shorts, d.forward, sweep, far s.fierce, stomp, and sometimes s.rh. Suprisingly, his d.fierce is great for hitting limbs.. go figure. Zeiram: About AAs. The posion breath is more of an anticipation-AA (Vice's whip, Rugal's cutter, etc). You think they will jump, and do they move when they do. It has slight start up that make is hard to react with in tight spots. I think it's best used when they or half screen or more away from you. C can airblock it (soo gay). It's good because it covers a lot of air in front of you, so you can stop straight up jumpers, people trying to get airborne to get away from your throws, etc. It's also funny to nail someone just as they leave the ground like a half screen away.. ^_^ If they jump from closer you should prolly use d.fierce. I would like to know something better myself. I don't know about the ready-go.. i rarely use it. You could try using close s.fierce if they're on top of you and going for deep jump-in. Don't forget about you jumping punches for high jumpers and air whores. little jump jab/strong can be even better. Try to toss them out a bit early. What I hate is that I don't have an instant anti-air outside of my meter. You could try JD->360/super/blah. There's parry. There's the roll->360/super AA you could try. You have to time you roll correctly so you nail them with your move just as they are landing (usually from behind). Posted by Urotsukidoji on 03:13:2002 01:11 AM: quote: Originally posted by hyt I remember a B5 report where the guy asked Chikkyu Sodom why he didn't use the Fire Breath as an AA and said that nobody jumped at a specific angle so I could use it properly. I don't agree with using the shoulder rush as an AA because the invincibility frames end around 5-7 frames before the execution frames come out. Actually...maybe they changed fire breath since CvS1(I never used Raiden in CvS1), but now the hit box extends all the way to the back of Raiden's head. Basically, if they were planning on hitting you, then your fire breath will hit them. I think fire breath is his best anti-air, but it's also his weakest super, so it's a trade-off. The only anti-airs I use are c.HP and fire breath. c.HP is so slow that you really have to guess when the opponent is going to jump a lot of the time. I think a jab shoulder rush is even slower, which is why I never use those. Come to think of it, I *do* use a jab poison spray sometimes to take care of small jumpers, but you sort of have to guess right to do that as well. Most of the time I just block the hit. I usually use Raiden in K-groove, so you can just defend the jump in and get some life/meter back. If their jump-in is shallow enough, you can just-defend, then throw/720 when they land. I suppose in P-groove you can parry *any* jump-in and throw when they land. Hmm, now that I think about it, P-Raiden sounds really good, since it gives him a way of jumping in as well. I have problems with jumpers as well, though. It's a good question, and I think it's one of Raiden's major weaknesses(right next to his lack of good pokes). How often do you use jab shoulder rush? Maybe I'm missing something. quote: anyways... N groove Raiden... if you have three stocks and break one... you can AC into his lvl3 poison breath. Oh my god, that is seriously game-breaking. This must have been a major oversight on Capcom's part. If you guys haven't seen it, you should definitely mess around with this. His alpha counter is a modified version of his s.mp which knocks the opponent up at a very high angle...perfect for lvl.3 fire breath, no matter where you are on the screen or how far away you are. So, now if you're N-Raiden with 3 stocks, the opponent has to be afraid of you *blocking* his attacks. That should definitely make rush down easier. Very cool strat, cheese_master. quote: Oh yeah... another useful food for thought. Raiden's st MP... is one of the three moves in the game that outright beat Jesus's (Sagat's) cr FP. I found this one out on my own a while ago... figured I would share it with you all. Yeah, I use his s.mp quite a bit. The priority is great, but unfortunately it hits very high. Most chars can duck under it as long as they're not attacking. Others(Athena) can simply c.hp under it. It IS a good normal though, thanks for pointing that out. It's very good against poke happy chars(Sagat). Also, here are a few other Raiden things I wanted to post. Most of you probably already know these, but...just to be complete: 1) I really don't recommend using his 360. We've seen that all his other throws can be followed up with a shoulder rush, but his 360 basically resets the match, making both of you recover at the same time at opposite ends of the screen. This totally sucks for Raiden. 2) His poison spray becomes much better when you have your opponent cornered. The game treats the poison spray like a fireball, meaning that you don't get pushed pack when it hits. So, if your opponent is in the corner and he blocks a poison spray, there's no room for him to be pushed back. You'll still be right on top of him when you both recover, allowing you to continue the pressure/guard break. 3) Body blow + headbutt is excellent for guard crush. And, it's totally safe when blocked. Not even one of those BS instantaneous supers can hit you afterwards. j.d+hp \/ c.mk XX bodyblow + headbutt takes off about half of the standard guard crush meter. If the bodyblow breaks your opponent's guard, don't follow up with the headbutt...wait and then start a new combo while your opponent is still reeling. -Uro Posted by zeiram on 03:13:2002 07:50 AM: yeah, his AC into lvl3 is really good, but i wish it were better against jumpins. like set the computer ryu to jumpin with fk and hit at about chest height and he could land and block the AC. thats dumb. btw- i forgot to mention another basic trick. (and raiden sure does need them) his standing fk. it goes over low attacks and it will beat some otherwise high priority attacks too (c. fp with sagat anyone) if timed properly. and if it hits or blocks, you can 360/720 upon raidens legs returning to the ground. thats right, you can HIT them and then 720 them and it wont pass through them. i find that a little odd, but interesting also. ive been working on some other CCs also, ill give my report tomorrow on what i find. im trying to find the highest damage possible for these. Zeiram out. Posted by Shotokan on 03:13:2002 09:23 PM: Raiden is "god-like". That is all... R o w d y Posted by D-side on 03:13:2002 09:26 PM: I think raidens regular fire breath move when used with a lp is great it does could damage, even block damage, and also has great recover. Just don't use the fierce one because recover sucks from that one. Also messed around in training and found out that lp,and mp. shoulder rush in moves connect to the super fire breath. I like using it to go thru apponents fireballs and then connecting it to the super. Posted by zeiram on 03:15:2002 03:49 AM: well, i was playing my one friend the other day and my raiden was having some problems. he was getting rushed down by iori and kim. it was pretty hard cause i could get the poke strings off barely ever cause he was moving around so much. im gonna go work on some things and if other people might wanna help too, things to stop those characters or a basic form of lockdown if you will. when playing i had to convert to play really patient to stop his rolls and other moves, but that took away from his offensive power when i had to keep watching out for his rolls. plus he would walk back and forth and a lot of time id walk forward and poke with stand wk, then poison breath, but he would walk right out of the range and then sweep me (kim has a long freakin sweep). so ill need to see what i can come up with. also i have another question, does anyone even use the dropkick? i know its a good mistake punisher and occasionally for a suprise move, but what else can be done with it? if they block it im lookin to get punished. also i was doin one thing yesterday that i never really thought to do, after a RR i do a walkup 360. it seemed to work well occasionally to switch it up cause usually id just do a fierce punch afterwards and the 360 would catch any roll attempts. anyway, just some thoughts here. Zeiram out. Posted by WKDCLWN on 03:15:2002 01:47 PM: Yeah I use the dropkick when I play Raiden. I forget about it sometimes, but I consider it a useful tool for Raiden. The idea is to use it like you would use a Balrog(boxer) straight punch. So that it connects at the end of it's range. It's kind of a pain to be holding down two kick buttons when you are fighting, which is why it will throw people off if used sparringly. It really sucks in grooves with a roll. Ex: My two friends both play guys with long range pokes(Rugal and Blanka)and like to stay just out of range and abuse this against my Raiden. But if I throw a dropkick in, I can out reach em and catch them when they think they are safely out of range, and make em come inside more often. Just use it sparingly. Posted by Eternal Blue on 03:15:2002 04:17 PM: Zeiram...I just wanted to say that you give excellent strategies man. Good job. Posted by hyt on 03:15:2002 04:34 PM: quote: Originally posted by D-side I think raidens regular fire breath move when used with a lp is great it does could damage, even block damage, and also has great recover. Just don't use the fierce one because recover sucks from that one. Actually all of Raiden's Poison Breath (Fire Breath is the super) has a +2 (frames) Guard Advantage so even if you make your opponent block the HP one you're still "safe" in that sense. However, you may be pushed back so far from all the hits / chipping that it may not give you any advantage compared to the LP one. Of course, the HP one takes significantly longer to come out, and you'll have to worry about character heights when crouching. Posted by Urotsukidoji on 03:15:2002 05:38 PM: quote: Originally posted by zeiram well, i was playing my one friend the other day and my raiden was having some problems. he was getting rushed down by iori and kim. Yeah, Kim is a real problem for my Raiden because of his long ass legs. I have problems with Dhalsim, Eagle, Sagat, and a lot of other chars for the same reason. The basic problem is that Raiden has no pokes, so these other characters can safely dance around outside Raiden's max range and poke him to death. When this starts happening to me, I usually fall back on one of these 2 things(but I die fast to these quick pokers too, so I probably won't be any help). 1) s.mp. Like someone else pointed out, this thing has some good priority. The problem is it hits high, so a lot of characters can duck under it. I'm pretty sure Kim's sweep will completely dodge this punch. But, if your opponent is using someone bigger like Sagat, just throw this out when you think he's going to poke. It will stuff just about everything that it hits. More importantly, once you've stuffed a few pokes with this, the other guy usually changes his gameplan, making Raiden's job easier. Very often, after I've stuffed 1 or 2 pokes, the other guy will immediately jump in. Now I automatically c.hp after stuffing pokes with s.mp. 2) Jab shoulder charge. I've been doing this a lot lately to get around poke-happy chars. It works sometimes, but I think I do it too much. If they block it they get a free combo, so, use it with caution(whatever that means). You want to time it so that his move whiffs while you're invincible, and then you hit him while he's retracting. Also, this is pretty unrelated, but when you mentioned Kim it reminded me of it. Raiden's s.lk can sort of be used like Kim's s.lk(i.e. s.lk, take a step forward, repeat). His s.lk comes out surprisingly fast and will stuff any slower moves the other guy tries to throw out while you're stepping fotrward. I think doing this a few times and then ticking a s.lk into a 360 or 720 would be pretty damn cool, but I haven't been able to try it yet. quote: also i have another question, does anyone even use the dropkick? i know its a good mistake punisher and occasionally for a suprise move, but what else can be done with it? if they block it im lookin to get punished. Nah, not really. I use it to start the round a lot of the time, actually. It catches a lot of people off guard then, and seems to hit anyone that doesn't block, but having to hold down 2 kicks during the round makes playing too hard, I think. quote: also i was doin one thing yesterday that i never really thought to do, after a RR i do a walkup 360. it seemed to work well occasionally to switch it up cause usually id just do a fierce punch afterwards and the 360 would catch any roll attempts. anyway, just some thoughts here. You mean after your opponent blocked your shoulder charge you did a walk-up 360? That's a good idea, but how far away is he after blocking? You know, just to help me keep track of all the RR setups, I'm going to write all the ones I know of down here. If I'm missing something then let me know. Punch throw: lp shoulder rush->whiffs, End up in short-360 or any level 720 range. Punch throw: mp shoulder rush->meaty hit Kick throw: immediate hp shoulder rush->whiffs, end up right next to opponent. Kick throw: slightly delayed hp shoulder rush->meaty hit. If blocked, still in range for a level 2 or 3 720. any level 720: lp shoulder rush->whiffs, End up in short-360 or any level 720 range. any level 720: mp shoulder rush->meaty hit quote: originally posted my hyt Actually all of Raiden's Poison Breath (Fire Breath is the super) has a +2 (frames) Guard Advantage so even if you make your opponent block the HP one you're still "safe" in that sense. However, you may be pushed back so far from all the hits / chipping that it may not give you any advantage compared to the LP one. Of course, the HP one takes significantly longer to come out, and you'll have to worry about character heights when crouching. Yeah, that's what's so good about his poison breath: you recover before the other guy does. Actually, like I mentioned earlier, you don't get pushed back after using it, only the opponent does. So, in the corner this is just dying to be abused. You can actually combo stuff after the poison spray(well, assuming they block it...you can hit them while they're still in blockstun). Lately I've been playing Raiden in S-groove, and I think he has some real potential in corner situations like this...something like jab-poison spray, s.lk XX jab-poison spray, dodge->punch etc. I'll have to fool around with S-Raiden more. Posted by noswad on 03:15:2002 07:56 PM: Urotsukidoji: "1) I really don't recommend using his 360. We've seen that all his other throws can be followed up with a shoulder rush, but his 360 basically resets the match, making both of you recover at the same time at opposite ends of the screen. " That's a good point. Another thing I don't like is that I don't think it's instant.. (?) I often try 360 and get hit with my arms stretched out in the air. It reminds me of T.Hawk's 360 from A3. I think in ways it is still better than his throws. There's the range and damage+can't be teched. Punch throw has sweet range, but it's easiest to tech.. and tech'ing throws seems pretty easy in this game. ..And I think you can do fierce meaty ready-go after Kick throw. And you can cancel s.lk into special? zeiram: Like you said, dropkick is dangerous.. But I find the occasional dropkick can do wonders against Yamazaki and when I'm get zoned by long pokes. Posted by Urotsukidoji on 03:16:2002 12:42 AM: quote: Originally posted by noswad [b]That's a good point. Another thing I don't like is that I don't think it's instant.. (?) I often try 360 and get hit with my arms stretched out in the air. It reminds me of T.Hawk's 360 from A3. Yeah, that's something that really bugs me. I could have sworn his 360 came out instantly in CvS1, but I never played Raiden so I couldn't say for sure. But, yeah, his 360 is definitely not instantaneous in CvS2. Going by the throw data that hyt posted a while ago, his 360 takes 3 frames to actually hit after you execute it. This really hurts Raiden I think, because people get free meaty hits on him when he gets knocked down(unlike Zangief who can always do a wake-up 360). Another interesting thing in hyt's post is the huge range on Raiden's punch throw. Most throws have a range of 52 pixels, but Raiden's punch throw has the longest range for a non-command throw: 83 pixels. quote: I think in ways it is still better than his throws. There's the range and damage+can't be teched. Punch throw has sweet range, but it's easiest to tech.. and tech'ing throws seems pretty easy in this game. Yeah, it's a trade-off. Even though I think it's a bad idea, I still find it hard to resist doing it when I have a throw opportunity . And your point about teching throws is definitely truw...it is WAY too easy to tech normal throws in CvS2 I think. You can interrupt any normal move with a tech for some reason. quote: ..And I think you can do fierce meaty ready-go after Kick throw. I originally left that one off because I didn't think it could do anything that a mp shoulder dash couldn't do. But, after reading this I was messing w/it, and it turns out that you're right, the fp ver. is actually better than the mp version. If you do the fp "ready go" right away, you'll end up standing right over your opponent as he gets up. If you wait a little bit, you'll get a meaty hit. The mp version can do these 2 things as well, but the cool thing about the hp version is that it leaves you slightly closer to your opponent if he blocks it. The reason this is good is because upon recovery, Raiden is still close enough to hit with a level 2 or 3 720. The mp version, on the other hand, leaves you too far away for this. I'll go change that in the post. Thanks, noswad. quote: And you can cancel s.lk into special? Only the close version. The reason I said I would use a s.lk is because it's fast enough that it will combo off of the poison spray that came before it. -Uro All times are GMT. The time now is 02:08 AM. Show all 28 posts from this thread on one page Powered by: vBulletin Version 2.2.4 Copyright © Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000, 2001.